Vinyl Record Raffle Facebook Group

[Bikedo]

Yay, drama
FB'ers, do keep US posted

[shaneoftheroad]

And apparently now some shitball went down in the Raffle group and they are now pointing to this page.
Did anyone from this page initiate something?

I left that group a while back. What happened?

[BlindCarbonCopy]

Yeah, the OP was involved.

[BlindCarbonCopy]

I know what happened, but I wasn't involved, and seeing as how it blew up in that group, and I like both groups, I'm going to continue to stay out of it outside of saying that yes the OP was a large part of it.

[Bikedo]

Anybody not a pussy wanna tell what's going on?

[BlindCarbonCopy]

Hahaha. Ok, Ara (who I'm assuming is the OP based on her profile pic) called out an active raffler, on charging too high of prices. This is the 2nd time she has commented on his stuff, and he was charging $304 for a full vault 5. So in my mind, pretty accurate when you now have to include international shipping in your raffle ticket prices. So shit blew up. Then another person got involved, started saying shit because he sold it to that raffler, and wanted to come back and say that the raffler shouldn't be raffling it off. Again, you sell something, what happens after that is not up to you in my mind. So that jumped it all off, then other people got involved backing up the raffler, as he is by far one of the more respectable rafflers on that site, and this is the second time shit has gotten stirred up by the same person, and last time the admins got involved and said calling people out on prices in a thread doesn't fly, and should be in a PM. So then another person that was involved ended up threatening to turn the group into FB and PayPal or something for breaking rules and getting the group disbanded. One of the admins was getting constant PM's, and it all stemmed from this stupid price debate. It's a free market economy, charging too much or taking advantage of people takes care of itself, people won't play. And knowing this rafflers specific numbers very well, he is one of the hosts that makes far less than many of the other hosts. So that's all the pieces I know, which is obviously not the entire story, but the gist of it at least.

[Bikedo]

Thanks for the story

[BlindCarbonCopy]

And the original time that anonymousbrunette is talking about, when she pointed out that someone could buy it for $100 less was her pointing to an EBay listing of a Live in Mississippi vault that had almost a full day left and wasn't in the same condition (the raffle item was sealed), so it was far far away from the final price it went for. The raffle was a full sealed mint LIM vault for $320 in ticket prices. Which from what I've seen isn't very far from market value. So that's the back story.

[anonymousbrunette]

And the original time that anonymousbrunette is talking about, when she pointed out that someone could buy it for $100 less was her pointing to an EBay listing of a Live in Mississippi vault that had almost a full day left and wasn't in the same condition (the raffle item was sealed), so it was far far away from the final price it went for. The raffle was a full sealed mint LIM vault for $320 in ticket prices. Which from what I've seen isn't very far from market value. So that's the back story.

So close!

The raffle you mention here raised hackles when Mr. Seaton specifically advertised something like (and this is close to verbatim,) "I've tracked down another Live in Mississsipi for you guys because you seem to like them so much!" It was his fourth raffle for this particular vault package. I mentioned that the margin seemed high. People cited Discogs and Popsike. I - along with others - mentioned they weren't the best options for valuation. I posted a link to ebay sales over the last two months. The "host" challenged me to find one for $100 less so I posted the nearest one up for auction. It sold the next day for $256. Mind you, this was before the mods there began rolling in International shipping. Now I was very polite in my posts and respectful of members, several of whom messaged me with questions and appreciation. True, I was on a transparency jag and that can be annoying in a tight community, which clearly they are; In both instances my bringing market values to light boosted this guys raffles.

Unfortunately you've got yesterday's exchange backwards. I didn't start the fire but I did add fuel by including recent sales and stating my opinion that I thought he was flipping, which he is. We've belabored the subject on this site so I won't get into it again (after all this is just one pussy's opinion - nod to Kees.) But then our charismatic hosts starts to rant about people interfering in his raffle and that "he's not here to make money" which spurred hoards of previous losers (which he tags each time he lists another record) to participate in his raffle. I suppose because, you know, he's not making money.

Now I've heard a lot of words for flippers but saint ain't one of them. And large numbers of fans (not collectors mind you but fans) are treating these guys as just that. They're haggling collectors down, creating mistrust in the vinyl community, screwing vinyl valuations, and creating small kingdoms of people who just don't know any better. So I spoke my mind and I don't regret a single word. It's unethical.

Now the site itself is a great idea and run by some righteous vinyl lovers but these fellas are ruining it for everyone. There's a real dilemma of how to handle shipping costs but price gougers are sucking up all the oxygen. For the most recent raffle the guy stands to pull in $304 for a package that has sold for between $150 and $235 over the last two months. True he has to cover shipping thanks to a recent change in guidelines and we don't know what he paid for it (actually I do but its beside the point.) This brings me to the real problem with the raffles. You are permitted up to a 100% profit (not recommended but permitted.) That is regardless of what you paid for it. Around here there are checks and balances. People are going to call you out if you try to sell a $200 vault package for $300 but not there, nosiree. So there's a whole slew of people who think they are getting a chance at a $300 record for $8. Defend them all you'd like BCC but people who are consistently selling records for well over market prices (after costs) are there to make money off of uninformed people and that makes for a toxic environment.

[BlindCarbonCopy]

I understand all that, and it makes total sense. But this one person has been singled out twice. Meanwhile, there are two WS splits going for $380 or $390, a tri color going for $350, and many others. So calling out a single person makes it seem a little like a vendetta and not so much transparency. I'm all for fair pricing too. And being VERY knowledgeable of pricing and stuff, I think you are underestimating the intelligence of the people who participate in the raffles. I don't think I'm spending $8 for a $300 but $8 for $225 or whatever, either way I can't afford the full package. Many of the participants are very active in swirl and TMRC, and know the market values of things. Now, that's not to say that some of them definitely have no idea, because some of them definitely don't. But there are a big mass of people flipping things everywhere, including here, and it's not true that they will be called out. I'm not naming names or prices, but there are a few things that I've seen here go for far more than something on DISCOGS or EBay or TMRC, and nobody says anything to some of those because of who it is posting it and there are a lot of people that are like me that aren't as much of a "respected community member" as a lot of the people. The problem is with many others on that which are making far more money, and not saying anything to them, but doing the same thing to the same person twice.

And yes, it is tight knit, because many of the people are TMRC and also in the raffle, and that particular host has done more kind things for people than you can imagine. And with everyone knowing him so well, and having him gone WAY out of his way for so many of us (including me), and them not recognizing you, it's always going to come across as an attack. Part of the reason I didn't want to get into this because people don't recognize me here as much as they do you, so I was very hesitant to say anything, but im glad I did so we could have a respectable conversation about it and everyone could understand what happened.

I absolutely am not attacking you at all, so please don't take it that way, I'm just trying to calmly explain the reason why it went that way yesterday. I think one of the bigger reasons is assuming that most people don't know what they are getting into. I've played in 20 or so of his, haven't ever won a single one, but he is always fair and while there is a little bit of money being made, it is far less than so many others on that site. And while flippers do increase the price all of us have to pay, the majority of things listed on this site are benefiting from that too.

Vinyl is a sellers market right now because in large part of what TMR has done for the resurgence of the record. So things are definitely selling for more than they should, but it's not just flippers that benefit from that. Living 14 hours from either TMR I might have a tiny chance to get some of my current collection from a non-flipper and having someone just sell it that's done with it, but there is a lot more demand than people that are just "done" with it, so that's where flippers come in. Again, it's a free market economy, if the price is too high, nobody has to buy it, and if they do, it's on them, not the flipper because the information is out there on what a fair price is.

So I apologize for not having all the facts straight, but that's kind of the other side. And as far as where most people are able to find things, on EBay and discogs, for a full vault 5, current lowest selling price as of yesterday that I could find was $280. Throw in int'l shipping and he might make $4 at most over the cheapest available price. I know what he paid for it to, and also know out of the 40 spots, he ended up giving 4 away for free to randomly selected (done with a draw from a hat) past rafflers who haven't won anything from him yet. So $288 total value. You knowing what he bought it for, add in $25 for int'l shipping that he has to account for, and the margin isn't big enough to worry about. Especially when there ARE people that are charging 100% over value that are on that page right now. Sorry for the long post. And absolutely not coming after you, judging you, arguing with you, or anything like that, I absolutely hate drama, just having a respectable conversation.

[arewhyehen]

Yeah, I'll take the blame for starting it, not Ara. I have been a member of the group for awhile but never participated. I saw Seaton posting a ton of raffles and have had conversations about it with others from the group and some from here due to his high prices.

Recently he purchased a few items from me and then listed them in the raffle for much higher than he paid. He sent me an email and said that he forgot that he won the same items in ebay auctions so he was going to raffle mine and make some extra money and give someone the chance to win it at cheap price.

I don't know about others, but I don't normally "forget" about when I purchase $200 items on eBay or anywhere else. That's a big purchase. Clearly he's buying these up to raffle them and make some extra cash because he knows he can get much higher than market value on this group. If he wasn't making money, he wouldn't be doing it. He's raffled the same items at least 4 or 5 times in some cases.

I agree with Ara on them using discogs and other BIN prices as guides. People can ask whatever they want, but that doesn't mean they will get it. Look at past auctions to get fair prices. Not only is he taking advantage of sellers by getting things at lower prices and then reselling much higher, but he's taking advantage of everyone on that page. If he raffles a $200 vault at $10 spots..that's 20 spots. That's not bad odds of winning. When he takes that same $200 vault and raffles it for $320, you now have many more spots open, but your odds just went way down. So yeah, you are still buying a $10 ticket but it's technically worth a lot less in your odds towards winning. It's not fair to contestants. Oh, not to mention the extra money he's pocketing.

Yeah, after you buy something you can do anything you want with it..he paid me, that's fine. I just find his excuses to be a bunch of bullshit. He literally had my items for a few hours before they went up for raffle. He will be making a good profit on both raffles, from what he paid from me. He denies that and has excuse after excuse. I'm not buying that he's not doing it for the money. I'd love to see him start raffling these items for the cost he paid plus $10 for shipping costs...let's see how long he keeps on buying up all these vaults from the market just to flip and give people a cheap way to get one.

When I posted my comment, I had a bunch of people from the group message me privately who were upset with what he does as well. The admin also messaged me and told me that he had people messaging him and threatening to report the group. I spoke with one of the admins who was nice, but defended Seaton, because he seems to exaggerate numbers a little to make his profit look much smaller than it really is. People are starting to catch on.

[shaneoftheroad]

I agree Seaton is a nice guy.
I agree he has the right to do what he wants with his property.
I agree he is most definitely the exact definition of "flipper." Perhaps even "super flipper." Some may say "professional flipper."

The price gouging on the raffle site does bother me and I believe it's harming the overall values of items in our community. That's why I'm no longer a member.

And BCC, if someone tries selling something HERE for over market value, they most certainly do get called out. Pretty much every time. If you've seen otherwise, please give us a specific example. Anybody can say it happens without proof. In my experience Swirl prices are always way better than even eBay's prices.

And that's all I have to say about it. I do miss the Swirl and I wish things were back the way they were before this whole Facebook thing.

[makers888]

Ahh hahaha! This is some great cheap entertainment! Should be signing up just for a few good laughs.

Not having a pony in the race, guess I'll say my piece. My opinion not having any influence on being a friend of the "OP" of this thread. But I do have to say that based on my personality, I'm definitely going to have to agree with anonymousbrunette.

There are raffle groups for every interest out there nowadays. And this price gouging situation seems to be a common subject of conflict. Personally, I've always been one to side with good trading/selling etiquette. Fair market value is the name of the game. And for my own peace of mind it's the road I travel. In these raffling groups, it just seems like a nice safe place to be for price gougers where they're not criticized for asking ridiculous prices for their on the market items. I do understand it's a service and takes some time. But some of them seem ridiculously profitable. If you're making $100+ profit on a raffle item you'd just paid fair market value for (or even less!), and purchased that item for the sole purpose to raffle to make a profit, that's very unethical as far as I'm concerned. And if reputation means anything to these types of sellers, they should maybe re-evaluate their actions.

My mention of not having a horse in the race, well, it couldn't be any clearer as far as raffles go. Raffling is gambling. I don't gamble. I've always stood by what a good friend told me many years ago: "make your own luck". And what that means to me is any cent put towards gambling is a poor financial decision.

Relating to the subject of ethics, I've made a couple "mistakes" on this very site in the past. I've dealt with a couple collectors in selling some of my items (some of them being somewhat personal) in the past where I'd cut them a very fair, if not excellent deal. Only to find them selling/trading these items shorty after and asking a premium. Call me crazy, but that doesn't sit well with me. I've shared my frustration with them and choose to never deal with them again. I guess this is just a personal example and wake up call to watch out who you deal with.

Again, this is just another collectors opinion. I do see valid arguments on both sides of the playing field. But me personally, wish to never deal with such people whether buying, trading, or selling with them.

[Bikedo]

And BCC, if someone tries selling something HERE for over market value, they most certainly do get called out. Pretty much every time. If you've seen otherwise, please give us a specific example. Anybody can say it happens without proof. In my experience Swirl prices are always way better than even eBay's prices.

Not true.
I hardly ever get called out.

[makers888]

And BCC, if someone tries selling something HERE for over market value, they most certainly do get called out. Pretty much every time. If you've seen otherwise, please give us a specific example. Anybody can say it happens without proof. In my experience Swirl prices are always way better than even eBay's prices.

Not true.
I hardly ever get called out.

Hahaha! Classic Kees! I was actually going to say something along the lines of that I should just go about all this like Kees. Because in the long run, you probably have the very least if any regrets on any of your sales.